George Floyd protests in America

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by mikemhg

I have to say, it does get tiring arguing about this subject on a forum where we will clearly not change each other's minds on the subject. As I've said before, the internet is too anonymous, it's too easy to spew tired rhetoric, or incomplex arguments. I'll reiterate, I am totally open to having a rational discussion in person with anyone here who wants to have a dialog that carries a contrary opinion here, I'll leave that olive branch out here once again.

Just have to say thanks for taking the time to post all that, knowing that most likely it will fall upon deaf ears. You have way more knowledge and way more patience than I ever would. I didn't think that anonymous letter from a "professor" was worth the 2 minutes it would take to read, but you went ahead and tore it down it piece by piece.

The 6 people you're addressing are just going to let it go right over their heads without processing it most likely, but I know there are a lot of lurkers here as well that are probably learning a lot from your posts and others too. Not everyone wants to speak up on this. Some are still learning, others just want to shit out their cognitive biases, and the rest are sorting everything out.

Even though it shouldn't be, I think this latest huge movement is making it seem "new" to a lot of people. It's up to you to decide what you find to be worth your time (I already gave up on the HK protest thread) and people shouldn't HAVE to count on you or others to explain everything to them over and over. So thanks again!

Speaking of Nigerians, man, when the news came out in China about Nigerian immigrants being sent out on the streets and not being allowed into restaurants or back into their homes, I saw a LOT of racism on twitter towards them from other African Black people... That kind of blew my mind at the time. I had no idea there was that kind of racism within Africa itself. Maybe it's just twitter though...

[SkinnyPupp]

History

[SkinnyPupp]

Also for those who think nothing is going on in Europe

Twitter

They better all be wearing masks

[280ZX]

QUOTE=68style;8989747]
Perfect timing for a Perfect situation! You know what you have in common with all the black people that actually make it from the hood? Luck and timing. Should you have to be lucky and have perfect timing to succeed? Hmmm?

Do you even listen to yourself?[/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree with this comment. This also sounds like a white privilege comment as you never experienced immigration to Canada yourself! My family and I immigrated to Canada in the mid 70's. We came to Canada with very little money and lived in my grandparents basement for 5 years before we got our first house and a 20+% mortgage. My parents had really shitty jobs. My dad was a waiter for a Chinese restaurant and worked every day for years and a second job to help keep the family afloat. During that time my dad had surgery for a ulcer he had and was out of work for awhile. We struggled alot during that time. My mother worked 6 days a week (sometimes 7 days when needed) as a dishwasher for 30 years in a Chinese restaurant. You talk about luck and timing, more like working there asses of just to survive. For a long time, I never had any new clothes as they were either patched up or second hand clothes given by family. I wouldn't call ourselves "luck and timing"(as you stated) for our family during that time. There are similar stories from other immigrants during that era. No money, sol. So we had to work our asses of. There were no handouts back then!

[Hondaracer]

That wasn’t work ethic or determination to succeed. That was your privilege. #Sarcasm

What I find frustrating about these arguments such as Hehe is proposing and the above is that there is an assumption that success based on hard work and privilege are mutually exclusive.

My grandparents had a similar story as above. Immigrated in the 60’s to Canada and not only did they have no money in their pockets, they actually owed back payments to Canadian immigration.

Both of them worked their asses off, neither spoke English, and they made a life for 4 children from virtually nothing. By the early 90’s both spoke perfect English, had built and owned multiple homes and created lives for my dad and his brothers which in turn, translated to the lives myself and all their kids live today.

Besides the colour of their skin they benefited zero from any perceived “privilege” and frankly I’m sure the general demographics of the time in the lower mainland were overwhelmingly white. So coming from a white country, into another white city, not speaking the language, where was their privilege? Because they were not of a clear minority or native they could avoid the police? They didn’t have time to get into trouble. And please, please don’t tell me their privilege was being born into a white nation or some other spin like that. Most of their young lives until they came to Canada they lived under the threat of war and covering their windows so bombers wouldn’t flatten their homes.

Success based on hard work and determination and “privilege” is NOT mutually exclusive.

It is definitely a different time these days and I fully acknowledge that white preference and privilege is a very real thing (although frankly I have never been important enough to believe I ever got preferential treatment socially or in the work force due to the colour of my skin) however I can’t say the same with interactions with law enforcement etc. Because frankly I’ve never had an experience with them which I wouldn’t have deemed fair.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Just have to say thanks for taking the time to post all that, knowing that most likely it will fall upon deaf ears. You have way more knowledge and way more patience than I ever would. I didn't think that anonymous letter from a "professor" was worth the 2 minutes it would take to read, but you went ahead and tore it down it piece by piece.

The 6 people you're addressing are just going to let it go right over their heads without processing it most likely, but I know there are a lot of lurkers here as well that are probably learning a lot from your posts and others too. Not everyone wants to speak up on this. Some are still learning, others just want to shit out their cognitive biases, and the rest are sorting everything out.

Even though it shouldn't be, I think this latest huge movement is making it seem "new" to a lot of people. It's up to you to decide what you find to be worth your time (I already gave up on the HK protest thread) and people shouldn't HAVE to count on you or others to explain everything to them over and over. So thanks again!

Speaking of Nigerians, man, when the news came out in China about Nigerian immigrants being sent out on the streets and not being allowed into restaurants or back into their homes, I saw a LOT of racism on twitter towards them from other African Black people... That kind of blew my mind at the time. I had no idea there was that kind of racism within Africa itself. Maybe it's just twitter though...

It’s nice you let Mike there take on an actual Informed, well thought out argument then you piggy back his post to make these little passive aggressive jabs at people.

You’re a clown.

[1337]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

That wasn’t work ethic or determination to succeed. That was your privilege.

Was that a reply to 280ZX? You'll need to elaborate on how working 2 jobs for 6-7days in a poor working class family is considered a lack of work ethic or how that would be considered a privilege.

Here's what I've heard in the last couple pages about success. Hard work and sacrifice are not factors for success. Sit back kids, a little bit of luck and the right timing and you'll be successful.

This thread has become unreadable.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by 1337

Was that a reply to 280ZX? You'll need to elaborate on how working 2 jobs for 6-7days in a poor working class family is considered a lack of work ethic or how that would be considered a privilege.

Here's what I've heard in the last couple pages about success. Hard work and sacrifice are not factors for success. Sit back kids, a little bit of luck and the right timing and you'll be successful.

This thread has become unreadable.

It was sarcasm. I expanded on it further

[westopher]

I just don't get how people equate their lives being difficult, then working hard for success to equate to everyone else's situation. There's plenty of people who worked harder than your immigrant parents and never got successful, or maybe never had the chance. Life is a series of an unfathomable amount of decisions, made by you AND the others around you that dictate what happens. Life is a game of chance, and if you believe you are fully in control of what happens you are completely delusional.

A little empathy to understand how things that are out of peoples control can dictate their situations isn't that much to ask for.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

It’s nice you let Mike there take on an actual Informed, well thought out argument then you piggy back his post to make these little passive aggressive jabs at people.

You’re a clown.

I decide what's worth my time and what's not, as does Mike. I deemed the HK thread not worthy of my time and effort any more, nor did I think that anonymous letter filled with logical fallacies was worth it.

Mike didn't have to respond to it either, because anyone with functioning logic can see it for what it is. He still deserves some props for pointing it all out bit by bit though, because the person posting it actually bolded the worst parts thinking he was making some great point. That shows how off someone can be.

I'm finished with the arguing and commentary. I'm done with all the negativity online. I don't even respond to you guys anymore, I don't even bother with the fail button anymore.

I'll continue posting news and posts that I think might be helpful, and interacting with the friendlier side of revscene.

[underscore]

The term white privilege, to me anyways, is a bit of a misnomer that people get hung up on. From my understanding it's just being at the level everybody should be at, where you have the possibility to succeed (or fail) based purely on what you choose to do and not what you look like. It doesn't mean to imply you're some 1%er getting handys from models every day. It does not mean life is easy, it does not guarantee success or freedom from difficulty, it simply means not facing additional difficulty based on your skin colour.

"The disadvantages of people who are non-white" doesn't really roll off the tongue though.

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

So coming from a white country, into another white city, not speaking the language, where was their privilege?

Their "privilege" was even having the possibility to do what they did when they got here. If they were black and trying to do the same thing at the same time it would have been far more difficult (maybe not even possible) for them to be as successful as they were able to become.

From: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....ople-in-canada

Between 1949 and 1967, there were Canadian entries in the American-published Green Book, the travelling guide for Black motorists that identified places that welcomed Black patrons.

I would imagine things would have been a lot worse for them to be in a country where they don't speak the language and they need to use a book written in that language just to try to move beyond whatever city they landed in without being assaulted.

[birddog3k]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

I decide what's worth my time and what's not, as does Mike. I deemed the HK thread not worthy of my time and effort any more, nor did I think that anonymous letter filled with logical fallacies was worth it.

Mike didn't have to respond to it either, because anyone with functioning logic can see it for what it is. He still deserves some props for pointing it all out bit by bit though, because the person posting it actually bolded the worst parts thinking he was making some great point. That shows how off someone can be.

I'm finished with the arguing and commentary. I'm done with all the negativity online. I don't even respond to you guys anymore, I don't even bother with the fail button anymore.

I'll continue posting news and posts that I think might be helpful, and interacting with the friendlier side of revscene.

War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is strength

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by westopher

I just don't get how people equate their lives being difficult, then working hard for success to equate to everyone else's situation. There's plenty of people who worked harder than your immigrant parents and never got successful, or maybe never had the chance. Life is a series of an unfathomable amount of decisions, made by you AND the others around you that dictate what happens. Life is a game of chance, and if you believe you are fully in control of what happens you are completely delusional.

A little empathy to understand how things that are out of peoples control can dictate their situations isn't that much to ask for.

I believe the problem is what is considered successful?

By BLM movement, having a roof and able to put food on the table seems to be a privilege. Their argument goes so far that "if we aren't having it, neither should you because you are enjoying the white privilege".

Here it seems that the argument is that working hard and making all the sacrifices won't make you a multi-millionaire.

No shit... I've already said it. Hardworking does not GUARANTEE success.

Please don't get confused between CAUSE and RESULT.

In order to get to a result, it ALWAYS takes multiple causes.

Hardworking is one of the MANY CAUSES for becoming rich, but not the ONLY cause.

Poverty among Black is a result of many CAUSES. One of those causes is in fact RACISM. But my argument goes that RACISM by itself does NOT guarantee a miserable outcome of a black person's life. There is also the EXTREMELY HIGH percentage of Black people raised without a father... at least in the US. Why? Because their assistance program literally encourages one to be raised by a single mom.

YouTube

Many want to put RACISM as THE cause of all the suffering and inequality in the society. They also want to the action of ONE (well, 4, but you get the idea) police officer on racism and frame the ENTIRE police force as racist and corrupt.

One of the most useful and important lessons I learned in life... which I learned when I l was into magic tricks is about how to keep the FOCUS of your audience from THE angle you desire. The whole trick doesn't make sense when seeing from any other angle. Thus, in order to NOT get tricked, all one has to do is to look AWAY from the focus plane, and ask yourself one very simple question "Why did they want my attention right there?"

This simple trick (no pun intended) has helped me in many occasions to make a proper choice.

So, what I ask is simple... THINK about IT.

Why are they emphasizing "RACISM" so much? Who is trying to keep the focus there? How do they benefit by having our attention there? Because when other reasonings go into the equation, the whole argument falls apart and there is ALWAYS a simple reason. In magic, we want the audience to believe it is in fact magic. Here? I'd let you be the judge.

I am not saying that racism doesn't exist and doesn't matter. I've encountered it first hand in many occasions in my life. We NEED to eradicate that out of our society. But the way BLM is doing will only bring more conflicts than it solves.

[Hehe]

YouTube

[Xu.Vi]

I'm going to leave this here for folks that think they can benefit off it. If it seems like too much work, not interesting, stupid, a waste of time, or something not useful...then keeps on with your life.

Rarely are people "raised" in a way without doing EXTENSIVE critical thinking upon themselves can they articulate what's going on in our world today. You can't just pick up a true understanding of the situation currently without educating yourselves on it. If you truly understood and empathize for what's been going on, you wouldn't be comparing your own anecdotal life experiences with others...that you seem to assume quite a lot about. \\

I was privileged enough to choose the city I want my future kids to grow up in and be educated in. I am privileged enough to get an easy pass when I was pulled over on both my motorcycle and car. I am privileged to the extent that I can walk around the store with my hands in my pockets without being assumed of stealing. I'm privileged to say I've only been racially attacked only 3 times within my lifetime. I can post these on my social media without fear of retribution. I can feel a sense of belonging in every community I step foot in. I am so privileged that I can walk around my neighbourhood during midnight without people being afraid of me.

I know not a lot of us here are wanting to be educated and is probably a reason why there's such a resistance. It's pointless for many to come into this thread with the hope to provide insight that may not otherwise be known. At the end of the day, we're all going to logoff our computers doing what we believe in, or not doing anything because we don't think it affects us personally.

https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/inclusiv...ing-privilege/

[Hehe]

YouTube

[Manic!]

White people with guns and bats protecting a statue and threatening a reporter. It reminds me of an episode of the sopranos.

YouTube

YouTube

[320icar]

How the fuck is it that guy can stand there silently, be assaulted, have his personal property vandalized and HE is the one removed by police officers. I understand the logic of diffusing a situation and in that sense it’s the right call, but fuck off he is not the aggressor.

[westopher]

Originally Posted by Hehe

But my argument goes that RACISM by itself does NOT guarantee a miserable outcome of a black person's life.

Literally not one person on the planet is arguing against you on that.
There are LOTS of successful black people. We have seen them. What people are trying to explain here is that:


If you are a black, you deal with a series of circumstances throughout your life that a white person IS MUCH LESS LIKELY have to deal with such as,
People believing you are a criminal with no basis
People believing you are a threat with no basis
Police interactions being far more dangerous
People expecting you to have a lack of education with no basis
Being passed over for a job or promotion due to race

These circumstances make it more difficult to be successful as they put you into dangerous, threatening, or adverse situations.

Not one person in here believes it's impossible for a black person to be successful. Not one believes there are no black people with excellent lives. Don't act like that's what BLM is inferring either.

[Hondaracer]

unironically My wife started watching “Dear White People” on Netflix and I somewhat begrudgingly followed along thinking it was going to be some liberal propaganda BS

However it is incredibly well written and acted (honestly one of the better Netflix shows I can remember watching in the last while in terms of acting and writing) and it might sound like hyperbole but the entire show does an excellent job at explaining many of these aspects of privilege and whatnot in a fictional setting. Highly recommend to give it a go even if it doesn’t seem like your cup of tea.

[birddog3k]

To the people citing income disparity as evidence of racism, does this chart suggest to you that asian people are suppressing white, hispanic, and black people?

If no, then why is there a difference?

Originally Posted by westopher

Literally not one person on the planet is arguing against you on that.
There are LOTS of successful black people. We have seen them. What people are trying to explain here is that:


If you are a black, you deal with a series of circumstances throughout your life that a white person IS MUCH LESS LIKELY have to deal with such as,
People believing you are a criminal with no basis
People believing you are a threat with no basis
Police interactions being far more dangerous
People expecting you to have a lack of education with no basis
Being passed over for a job or promotion due to race

These circumstances make it more difficult to be successful as they put you into dangerous, threatening, or adverse situations.

Not one person in here believes it's impossible for a black person to be successful. Not one believes there are no black people with excellent lives. Don't act like that's what BLM is inferring either.

Let's say for argument sake that what you said is 100% correct. This is straight from the BLM website:

Campaign Goals
1. Vigorously engage our communities in the electoral process:
Millions of Black Americans are repressed within the democratic process, yet data shows Black voters tipped the balance in the 2018 midterm elections. Moving towards 2020, we seek to increase the power of our voices and votes.

2. Educate our constituents about candidates and the issues that impact us most:
We will amplify and do a deep dive into the issues that affect our communities most and hold our candidates accountable on these issues.

3. Promote voter registration among Generation Z, the Black community, and our allies:
Demographic shifts means that in the 2020 election, non-whites will account for a third of voters and one in ten voters will be members of Generation Z. We will encourage and provide resources for those seeking to vote.

Campaign Focus
BLM’s #WhatMatters2020 will focus on the following issues:
Racial Injustice
Police Brutality
Criminal Justice Reform
Black Immigration
Economic Injustice
LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
Environmental Conditions
Voting Rights & Suppression
Healthcare
Government Corruption
Education
Commonsense Gun Laws

As you can see, the most important priority is to get people to vote.

When you click the DONATE button, it takes you to Actblue. You can test this out by hovering your mouse over the DONATE button and looking at the link.

There is a website called opensecrets.org. This is their purpose in their own words: The Center for Responsive Politics is the nation's premier research group tracking money in politics and its effect on elections and public policy.

If you search for actblue you get this: https://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/exp...224&cycle=2012

here are their campaign contributions:

Rank Vendor/Recipient Total Expenditures
1 Bernie 2020 $186,780,034
2 Biden for President $119,253,857
3 Elizabeth Warren Presidential Exploratory Cmte $93,478,053
4 Pete for America $78,100,960
5 Democratic Congressional Campaign Cmte $55,684,603
6 Amy for America $43,167,720
7 Friends of Andrew Yang $31,705,527
8 Democratic Senatorial Campaign Cmte $31,067,413
9 Democratic National Cmte $29,924,707
10 Amy McGrath for Senate $29,558,536

Donating to BLM means you're donating to the Dems. The problem with this, combined with the list of campaign focuses from the BLM website is that they do not tackle the main issues hurting black lives in America. There's no discussion on the high number of black kids growing up without fathers. In fact, there's no specific things they want to accomplish except de-fund the police.

#DefundThePolice
May 30, 2020

Enough is enough.

Our pain, our cries, and our need to be seen and heard resonate throughout this entire country.

We demand acknowledgment and accountability for the devaluation and dehumanization of Black life at the hands of the police.

We call for radical, sustainable solutions that affirm the prosperity of Black lives.

George Floyd’s violent death was a breaking point — an all too familiar reminder that, for Black people, law enforcement doesn’t protect or save our lives. They often threaten and take them.

Right now, Minneapolis and cities across our country are on fire, and our people are hurting — the violence against Black bodies felt in the ongoing mass disobedience, all while we grapple with a pandemic that is disproportionately affecting, infecting, and killing us.

We call for an end to the systemic racism that allows this culture of corruption to go unchecked and our lives to be taken.

We call for a national defunding of police. We demand investment in our communities and the resources to ensure Black people not only survive, but thrive. If you’re with us, add your name to the petition right now and help us spread the word.

How do you defund the police and keep public safety a priority? How do you account for all the 1000s of different cities and different police departments? Why is there never any specificity?

Everything BLM does seems like it's an attempt to sway public opinion and get hashtags trending instead of looking at the facts and solving the issue. It's all an appeal to emotion. There's no use of facts and statistics.

Racism exists, no doubt about it, but the way you solve it is not by doing any of the things BLM and the Dems are doing / want to do.

[westopher]

They have 2 choices at the moment. Do you think voting dems is not an appealing prospect for black voters in comparison to a government that’s putting right wing Supreme Court judges, calling nazi rally attendees “very fine people” and shutting down voting stations in predominantly black neighborhoods?
It’s a two party system, and pissing on the forest fire is better than throwing a match into it.

[birddog3k]

Originally Posted by westopher

They have 2 choices at the moment. Do you think voting dems is not an appealing prospect for black voters in comparison to a government that’s putting right wing Supreme Court judges, calling nazi rally attendees “very fine people” and shutting down voting stations in predominantly black neighborhoods?
It’s a two party system, and pissing on the forest fire is better than throwing a match into it.

Right wing Supreme court judges is no better or worse than left wing judges. It's the same. This point is irrelevant unless you think that right wing ideas are bad - if you do I'd like to ask which ideas?

Second point is fair - part of being in that position is having character because you're looked up to by millions of people, millions of kids. He's said and done things that he shouldn't have, that's for sure.

Shutting down voting stations in predominantly back neighborhoods - I'm not aware of this but if you have sources I'll learn.

The thing is, prior to the pandemic, the US had the lowest unemployment for blacks in history and all time stock market highs, even years after everyone was saying that it would crash. I remember in 2015 people were saying buy gold because the market's going to bottom out. It never did. These are factual results. This was a result of things Trump has done, namely lowering the corporate tax rate. Lowering taxes isn't something the Dems would ever do. They need as much taxes as possible to implement as many of their (shitty) social programs.

I don't support either side and I'm actually interested to see what's going to happen regardless of who wins. However, I have a feeling that the income disparity is going to get worse over time.

We're living in an age where you have technology that will allow you to maximize your earning potential. I know (white) people who are teaching their kids how to code. These kids are going to be better off than kids growing up without that skill. This kind of education is what's required to help everyone from poverty.

[welfare]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Speaking of Nigerians, man, when the news came out in China about Nigerian immigrants being sent out on the streets and not being allowed into restaurants or back into their homes, I saw a LOT of racism on twitter towards them from other African Black people... That kind of blew my mind at the time. I had no idea there was that kind of racism within Africa itself. Maybe it's just twitter though...

So it never occurred to you that black people could despise other blacks due to historical issues?
Just like Blackfoot and Cree, or Chinese and Taiwanese, or Croatians and Serbians, or any other race on the planet?
Good Lord that's revealing.

[welfare]

https://youtu.be/OMmrWurAStw

The scapegoat of accountability through this narrative of 'white supremacy', largely perpetuated by liberals, isn't empathetic at all. It's actually quite cruel and self serving.
The media's silence and denial makes them complicit in, what equates to, a genocide.