You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
A 13 year old and a 15 year old in Tulsa were violently arrested for what I previously thought only existed as a part of a stand-up routine: walking while black.
I'm also beginning to sound like a broken record in this thread. Within the spoiler is what my union, the BC Government and Service Employees' Union (BCGEU) sent out to it's members a couple hours ago. Take what you'd like from it everyone.
Thank you for your passion and commitment to the cause and issue at hand. it is quite evident. And, as well as the gracious tone with which you engaged in the conversation. Refreshing to see adult conversation instead of the name calling and the dismissive and pompous attitude of others here. While we have some slight differences .. full respect to you.
One issue that we may differ on is personal agency. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this in your ongoing support of individuals who are struggling with poverty, mental health, addictions, etc. This might be a slightly different way to frame Hehe's point. At some point in your support of the down and out or those racialized, when do you empower the individual to make his/her own decisions? (not withstanding those examples you gave where there are physical/medical limitations like autism and other conditions). In work with the marginalized, this theme of personal agency is an important one.
Thank you for your passion and commitment to the cause and issue at hand. it is quite evident. And, as well as the gracious tone with which you engaged in the conversation. Refreshing to see adult conversation instead of the name calling and the dismissive and pompous attitude of others here. While we have some slight differences .. respect.
One of which is personal agency. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this in your ongoing support of individuals who are struggling with poverty, mental health, addictions, etc. This might be a slightly different way to frame Hehe's point. At some point in your support of the down and out, those racialized, when do you empower the individual to make his/her own decisions? (not withstanding those examples you gave where there are physical/medical limitations like autism and other conditions). In work with the marginalized, this theme of personal agency is an important one.
Thank you. That's a very good question and really appreciate the curiosity. It's a refreshing change in short, personal agency...for me, is when the client expresses his commitment in bringing themselves back up. With that said, without meeting a few levels of their hiarchy of needs, it is very common to see relapse in any stage of their goals.
Before reading, I want everyone to approach this with the fact that you will disagree, question, and feel very uncomfortable with the ideologies. It's ok to feel that way if it's new to you. I'm not looking for you to agree or disagree with me - that's not the point. I've respectfully read and replied, and even questioned with curiosity, I ask of you to do the same. Oh, and i also realized I went off the tangent a bit too. Oh well.
I'm not sure if I can speak for the entire demographic you mentioned but I will try my best for those struggling with poverty, substance use, and mental health.
Before looking at the host of reasons how marginalized people got to where they are now, we must be aware of the intersections present (how they got here is obviously very debatable according to this entire thread, so I won't go into it)...what do those people have in common? As mentioned earlier, many clients were traumatized, neglected, abandoned, sexually abused, domestically abused, (a few of many); these experiences will very oftentimes result in pain.
Now, everyone in our world experiences pain and isn't limited to the marginalized. Pain can be felt and also dealt with in many ways. Some find a relief through self harming, suicide, substance use, shopping, gambling, eating, working, social media, smoking, alcohol, or even counselling and 12 step groups. If you're like me, and many others in our society, we've got our own form of addiction...the only difference is that one method may be more socially acceptable (but I hope we can agree that the ultimate purpose is to relieve dress).
(Gabor Mate's definition of addiction: Addiction is manifested in any behaviour that a person finds temporary pleasure and relief on but suffers negative consequences as a result of, and does not give up or can not give up despite those negative consequences). Keep in mind that this doesn't mean every person traumatized will be an addict, but it does mean every addict has been traumatized.
So we're not asking why the addiction, but rather...why the PAIN. If a cigarette is my medication for pain, while meth may be for another, what we're ridding of is the same; pain.
Yes. There are differences in the effects certain activities do to the self (loss of money, liver damage, respiratory diseases, AIDS,...IT GOES ON)...but many play with dopamine receptors.
Through my experience and from many other professionals working with said demographics, nearly all the people have endured something traumatic during their toddler/early childhood and leading into teenage years. How one could define traumatic or how they "wouldve handle the situation" is completely irrelevant and insensitive; because like welfare mentioned, no one can ever understand another entirely without being in their shoes.
So anyway, the human brain is shaped by the environment...particularly the adult-child relationship. When we acknowledge early childhood development (the above), we can begin to understand that the child's brain is for a FACT being shaped through their experiences as a child. To tie this together...our childhood shapes our understanding of the society. I'll have you make the connections here.
So today, in our society we've got many young people of all ages groups walking through life with unimaginable trauma, stress..etc and are seeking a way to escape from the pain and seek a feeling of warmth, connection, and happiness to escape for a portion of their day. Many will seek the comfort of their family and loved ones to fulfill their dopamine difficiency, while others aren't fortunate to have these groups (or unaccepting of it because of the way they were raised/weren't raised). Now, our society implies that it's ok to freely advertise activities such as tobacco, which kills 5.5 mill people around the world (you can find out how many people die from alcohol use) while stigmatizing other substances or activities. Our world has guidelines on how you should appropriately deal with stress: alcohol, tobacco, gambling, shopping,........blah blah, and our society also has a way you shouldn't deal with stress: meth, heroine, prostitution, illegal gambling,...and so on.
No one argues a person with diabetes because they don't exercise and eat too much shouldn't recieve insulin. No one argues that smokers with inflamed lungs and narrow airways shouldn't get medication to open it up and reduce inflammation so they can prolong their life. Aren't we treating the consequences of their addictions? Why shouldn't we be against that, if were against treating traumatized and folks in pain?
As mentioned in a previous post, marginalized folks are ashamed and blame themselves for where they are now -- as with many in here too. They think they're flawed and failures. The biggest driver for relapse is stress itself. If cortisol level is high then chances are they'll use drugs. So if we are marginalizing them and stigmatizing, then we're continuing to stress them more.
Now...this brings us to the war on drugs. It's essential the war against people that were abused and traumatized and have mental health problems. Theres enough negative consequences there on the addictions alone. We don't have to add onto that...but we are.
Addiction is not a choice people make. It's a response to pain. I have faith that with all that's explained, we can find a correlation between poverty, mental health, addictions and such.
so. To conclude all of this...we fight for resources and revolutionary ways that other countries have and are implementing in order to address these issues. The personal agency here is for them to take this step -- and we've seen great success because of how anonymous, non-judgemental, and supportive (ie. Meeting them at where They're at in life...rather than asking them to meet us at our expectations) and OUR personal agency to identify our own issues revolving around a group of PEOPLE. PEOPLE.
Here's an example:
Safe injection reduces harm for the patients and for many of these people, it's their first time in their life to ever receive compassion and medical care (I can't count how many times I've recieved it). It doesn't curr addiction..it's not supposed to. Be nonjudgemental. And meet people where they are. If we have these, it means fewer are injected in streets, fewer are falling down in streets, fewer are getting diseases that costs lots for long term.
The power of difference allows our world to go round. We are able to address problems from all walks of life. It's ok and encouraged to have differences in our ideologies. What many here don't have is the curiosity to reflect, think, or dare I say...truly perspective take...
Xu.Vi, I can see that you are referring to Maslow's hierarchy of needs and I totally agree that we (government, healthcare, society, non-profits) need to provide the first few levels of basic needs. But even Maslow's goal is self-acutalization or fulfilling one's full potential. Now, before anyone misunderstands, I also get that this does not mean the capability to make it to middle class. One's full potential may look like basic housing, maintain a level of health care, finding some sort of work be it part-time. I don't think you will disagree that bringing a person to the point of employment gives the individual tremendous amount of dignity and self-worth. In fact, I would hope that if you are able to help someone to the point of partial employment, you would consider that to be a huge milestone.
You also referred to Gabor Mater who I am somewhat familiar with, leading researcher of mental health & addictions. Leading advocate of safe injection sites and a proponent of addiction as a disease. And what you explain as Trauma Informed Care for those who have had trauma or experienced issues of attachment in childhood.
I'm 100% for supporting and helping individuals with compassion, non-judgment, acceptance and belonging to the point where they can exercise their personal agency. We have digressed from racism, BLM movement to our Vancouver context but I do see some similarities, parallels, and overlap ... although not exactly the same. I honestly, don't think we are that far off in terms of ideology or approach. I would applaud much of what you and your colleagues do. Again, props and respect to you.
In regards of that underprivileged in our society, my recommendation is really a single system:
Exemption of our labor laws WITH careful oversight to prevent abuse.
It's just very simple. If I were a business owner, and I have to pay minimum wage anyway... why wouldn't I hire someone regular with clean record than hiring someone in need but with record or history of some shit?
Thus, incentives have to be given. Now due to Covid, we have this wage subsidy thing going on in Canada. We should CONTINUE that after the whole mess pass, but this time... for people who NEEDS a second chance.
If carefully planned out, with people from our gov't to assist on the program, making sure that all the problems (say psychological state/health of participants) get addressed properly, it could be similar to the system of apprenticeship that some countries have. Businesses get basic labour for cheap, while people can build credential, experience, expertise and MOST IMPORTANTLY CONFIDENCE over time.
In BC we have a very robust program for kids with Autism. Even though there are some things that I think can be done better, but if parents take full advantage of the program, it could make night/day difference on the kid.
If we bring that level of attention to a grownup/people in need, I am sure we can make HUGE impact in their life.
Again... going back to what I said before, make it easy (er) for them to learn how to fish. Instead of promising them fishes.
I know there'd be people who wouldn't be able to fit into the program due to their mental state or physical condition... etc. But even if we can get 10% of people OUT of the street for good... it's still an incredible accomplishment.
In regards of that underprivileged in our society, my recommendation is really a single system:
Exemption of our labor laws WITH careful oversight to prevent abuse.
It's just very simple. If I were a business owner, and I have to pay minimum wage anyway... why wouldn't I hire someone regular with clean record than hiring someone in need but with record or history of some shit?
Thus, incentives have to be given. Now due to Covid, we have this wage subsidy thing going on in Canada. We should CONTINUE that after the whole mess pass, but this time... for people who NEEDS a second chance.
If carefully planned out, with people from our gov't to assist on the program, making sure that all the problems (say psychological state/health of participants) get addressed properly, it could be similar to the system of apprenticeship that some countries have. Businesses get basic labour for cheap, while people can build credential, experience, expertise and MOST IMPORTANTLY CONFIDENCE over time.
In BC we have a very robust program for kids with Autism. Even though there are some things that I think can be done better, but if parents take full advantage of the program, it could make night/day difference on the kid.
If we bring that level of attention to a grownup/people in need, I am sure we can make HUGE impact in their life.
Again... going back to what I said before, make it easy (er) for them to learn how to fish. Instead of promising them fishes.
I know there'd be people who wouldn't be able to fit into the program due to their mental state or physical condition... etc. But even if we can get 10% of people OUT of the street for good... it's still an incredible accomplishment.
Dude. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem to me that you've got any understanding of what you're advocating for...lol...if I can even call it advocating.
Xu.Vi, I can see that you are referring to Maslow's hierarchy of needs and I totally agree that we (government, healthcare, society, non-profits) need to provide the first few levels of basic needs. But even Maslow's goal is self-acutalization or fulfilling one's full potential. Now, before anyone misunderstands, I also get that this does not mean the capability to make it to middle class. One's full potential may look like basic housing, maintain a level of health care, finding some sort of work be it part-time. I don't think you will disagree that bringing a person to the point of employment gives the individual tremendous amount of dignity and self-worth. In fact, I would hope that if you are able to help someone to the point of partial employment, you would consider that to be a huge milestone.
You also referred to Gabor Mater who I am somewhat familiar with, leading researcher of mental health & addictions. Leading advocate of safe injection sites and a proponent of addiction as a disease. And what you explain as Trauma Informed Care for those who have had trauma or experienced issues of attachment in childhood.
I'm 100% for supporting and helping individuals with compassion, non-judgment, acceptance and belonging to the point where they can exercise their personal agency. We have digressed from racism, BLM movement to our Vancouver context but I do see some similarities, parallels, and overlap ... although not exactly the same. I honestly, don't think we are that far off in terms of ideology or approach. I would applaud much of what you and your colleagues do. Again, props and respect to you.
That's the goal my dude. Appreciate your replies and insight on my posts. I've learned so much through all of Dr. Mate's books, talks, practice, movies (he starred in) and zoom conferences. There's only a handful of professionals that would spend 13 years in our DTES with the folks.
I'd like to know more about your thoughts on all of this if you don't mind sharing
I don't know what more else to add. I've had training/seminars on Trauma Informed Care from Providence Health and found it to be very eye-opening and insightful. Of course, Dr. Mate is a bit of a legend there. I worked at St. Paul's for a time and saw a lot urban health patients who had so many complex issues and understand that many have experienced trauma and ACE (Adverse Childhood Experiences) and the long term effect it has on the way that a person deals with pain. I also understand that this can be transmitted relationally and psychologically to the next generation. There are Residential School survivors who are in their 40's and 50's now and they parent out of their painful past traumas.
I have volunteered with non-profits who seeks to help underprivileged children (mainly First Nations background) to complete their Dogwood diploma so that they have a better chance to break the cycle of poverty.
I fully agree with compassionate support of individuals but at the same time, see the goal as fostering independence, enacting personal agency, managing or recovery from addictions (and move towards being clean), and developing capacity to be as independent as possible. The ability to work is more than being financially independent, it results in self-confidence, dignity, a sense of self-worth, and positive mental health. Now if our system would only allow someone to earn some extra income and not subtract it from their disability or welfare, then we might see some progress in this area.
I do have adverse reactions against a victim mentality where individuals blame everything on external circumstances. I attended the premier of this doc in which it told a great story of healing, forgiveness, and reconciliation. In short it is a story of a number of First Nations individuals facing their traumatic history, learning to forgive, let go, and finding self-actualization.
Dude. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem to me that you've got any understanding of what you're advocating for...lol...if I can even call it advocating.
Dude, one of the perks of a person married to a BCBA-D and clinical psychologist licensed in both US and Canada while being with her the entire time, is that you get to “volunteer” to proofread, reference-check and even data collection on shits she does. And her area of concentration happens to be underprivileged kids with metal and psychological disorders.
Granted, I’m not the expert and I could never really figure out how my wife even gets paid.
But after reading all the materials that my wife read during her master and doctorate, I think my opinion was at least an educated opinion.
In fact, let’s take my wife out of the equation, simply as a Canadian citizen and a voter, am I not allowed to have a suggestion on public policies?
So, please stop with this “I’m the expert who work on this and others don’t know shit attitude”. You are welcome to refute my suggestion, but just playing the “expert” card won’t get you very far in this discussion.
Alright. I'd love to read about what your wife has published over the years. Every PhD student has a dissertation and have been involved in publications. I am open to learning and have a few hours left of my day tonight.
I can cite many of what I've said in my replies. You can't. You can cite "mom, dad, black friend, wife, and Reddit".
I almost think you feel attacked by the amount of information in my post because it doesn't align with what you learned in your wife's papers, parents, and assumptions of the issues. Please, don't be...it's not my intentions. If we go by your defense...then I've read material from the top leading psychologists, counsellors, and neuroscientists within BC, Canada, and a few internationally published articles in recognized journals. I'm not here to flex my knowledge...I'm here to share it...to hopefully provide insight. What you're providing me...isn't insight...it's self confirmed biases...im serious man. If I wanted to flex...I'd claim that I learned my shit through a RCC, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, ADVOCATE, PHYSICIAN, PHARMACIST, and NEUROSCIENTIST....because those are the folks behind many of the work done within the topic. Relax. I'm not here to piss you off. Ok?
I already said, let’s take my wife out of the equation as I don’t need to drag her down and it wasn’t her opinion.
Let’s have some privacy shall we? She never endorsed any shit I said even though she respects my opinion. Let’s keep her out of this.
If you want to feel that I’m bullshitting, that’s fine. I’m just drawing the line somewhere.
BCBA-D is a certification very specific in the field which I’m sure you are familiar with. If I didn’t already knew a thing or 2 about the topic, I wouldn’t know what jack that meant and even worth to bring it on. So, at least I can assure you that I know what a BCBA-D is.
So, back to the voter part, is it not ok for a voter who had read a bit to give suggestions about public policies?
It also took me many posts to understand that a public forum for cars isn't the right place to be having a mature, educated, and informed discussion about this. Which probably explains why I don't normally check or post on the scene.
I'm going to hop back off of this. I wish that those reading have learned something from our posts or took a perspective they're not normally comfortable taking. I appreciate the time you've put into your replies.
Really I'm tired of this whole political correctness bullshit. How about loosening up a little bit and don't confuse expression vs. racism or any other form of discrimination for that matter.
Context MATTERS
When a black friend messages me "sup n*gger, what da faq have u been up to lately?", his context is out of closeness and of course, he's black and he's ok with using the N word.
Nevertheless, by PC standard, I'm supposed to distant myself from accepting let alone using that phrase or even consider myself as his "n*gger" because I ain't black. Breaking away from that level of social trust my buddy has for me. THAT is NOT self-discipline or even respect. It's literally RACISM toward black that one's purposely distancing themselves from another particular group of our society. THAT is what separates our society.
When one's using a word, an image or anything that's clearing targeting in a malicious way toward a group of people, whether or NOT that phrase is a racial slur is irrelevant. This person is offending the said group.
Again, when dealing with things that are racial sensitive, CONTEXT is what MATTERS. Just because someone ALWAYS avoids using racial slurs doesn't mean the person isn't racist. Ergo, just because someone is using something from a specific social group, it doesn't mean it's racist in nature. Avoiding altogether doesn't teach us and our future generation the right lesson and ONLY SEPARATES us instead of uniting us.
Aunt Jemima is changing its name and Uncle Bens is planning to do it also. It would have been great If Jemima was the one who created the product but Jemima is just the black mammy your mom used because she was too lazy to cook and clean.
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
Really I'm tired of this whole political correctness bullshit. How about loosening up a little bit and don't confuse expression vs. racism or any other form of discrimination for that matter.
Context MATTERS
When a black friend messages me "sup n*gger, what da faq have u been up to lately?", his context is out of closeness and of course, he's black and he's ok with using the N word.
Nevertheless, by PC standard, I'm supposed to distant myself from accepting let alone using that phrase or even consider myself as his "n*gger" because I ain't black. Breaking away from that level of social trust my buddy has for me. THAT is NOT self-discipline or even respect. It's literally RACISM toward black that one's purposely distancing themselves from another particular group of our society. THAT is what separates our society.
When one's using a word, an image or anything that's clearing targeting in a malicious way toward a group of people, whether or NOT that phrase is a racial slur is irrelevant. This person is offending the said group.
Again, when dealing with things that are racial sensitive, CONTEXT is what MATTERS. Just because someone ALWAYS avoids using racial slurs doesn't mean the person isn't racist. Ergo, just because someone is using something from a specific social group, it doesn't mean it's racist in nature. Avoiding altogether doesn't teach us and our future generation the right lesson and ONLY SEPARATES us instead of uniting us.
Dude...just cut your losses....please. You're trying to sound smart but your treatise just comes out as jumbled word salad.
No one is saying you can't use the N-word among friends. People are being called out for using racially inflammatory language in public or in public forums on the internet. We've had the internet for over 30 years now and it's mindboggling to see people still use it to destroy themselves or the fact that cameras on phones exist. Just don't be fucking stupid tool in real life or online...do whatever you want in private.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!
